Adjusting Inclination of Navien Exhaust Pipe

See a previous post for an explanation of why this repair is being done.

Removing Navien connection to exhaust pipe

Sheet rock cut out around inlet and exhaust pipes

Condensate (~1.5") trapped in exhaust pipe

Original set of exhaust pipe

Exhaust pipe hole expanded and pipe lowered

Cover placed over open sheet rock space

Piping refit to Navien

Studying the Navien Problem

As indicated in an earlier blog post, we have had problems with our Navien NR-180A-NG tankless hot water system each winter since its installation. The system fails to ignite (Error Code E003), and thus won't deliver hot water. This happens only during winter weather, i.e., when it's very cold outside. The last time it happened was in January 2013. The error code displayed then was E027, "Abnormal activity of the air pressure sensor."

One of the theories for why we're experiencing this problem is buildup of condensate in the flue that exhausts hot air from the Navien. The flue piping has a long level section that elbows up (see photo) and water could collect here in the winter, since outside air will be cold and make the pipe cold. If enough water is collecting there, it may be blocking exhaust enough so that the system senses an air pressure problem. We've been able to reboot (unplug and plug) the system and get it working again.

Matt and Chris Q of Campbell & Company were out today to examine the system and discuss what might be done to correct the problem. It was generally agreed that the long run of the vent pipe and failure to slope the pipe the designated amount (1/4" per foot) is the major contributing factor in the system failures during cold weather. However, Matt hypothesized that another factor may be the fact that the cold air in the winter is harder to move through the long exhaust pipe. The combination of the condensate building up in the pipe and the added difficulty of moving the heavier cold air may be causing the air pressure anomaly and failure to ignite.

We hesitate to go in and realign the exhaust pipe because it is housed in a chase for cosmetic reasons (see photo below).

Matt disconnected the intake pipe on the Navien so that warm air is being drawn from inside the home (see photo below), rather than outside. We'll see if this fixes the problem when the weather turns cold. If not, we'll have to cut a hole in the chase where the vent pipe is located and attempt to incline the pipe and exhaust it directly under the deck instead of on the roof.

Update: 3302 W 42nd, June 2013

Installation of a nuvoH2O Water Treatment System

We've been in our new home a little over 2 years and decided it's time to do something about the hard water. I'm not sure what the hardness level is, but we've been getting buildup in the dishwasher, and on shower doors.

We had a water "softener" in our previous home and had it removed after a few years because of continued reliability problems, plus we were never happy with using salt to soften our water. We had the new home plumbed for a water softener, but hadn't decided yet what we wanted to use for water treatment.

After doing some research, I decided to install a system that uses chelation to remove the hardening agents. The system we chose was the nuvoH2O.

According to the nuvoH2O web site;
"The nuvoH2O Manor system uses revolutionary technology to lower the PH level of water based on the basic scientific process of chelation in which the metal ions causing hard water, principally calcium and magnesium, are bound to the chelating agent in nuvoH2O's FDA-approved, proprietary formulation, which keeps the minerals soluble and unable to cause hard water problems. The resulting water is soft and healthy for all of your household uses, including drinking, bathing, washing, and lawn and plant watering."

Although the web site advises that the system can be self-installed, I decided to hire my plumber to handle it. I'm glad I did. Their special tools and expertise made it an easier job than it would've been for me.

nuvoH2O system was placed next to the Navien tankless hotwater heater

PEX pipe was used for piping and a ProPEX Expander tool was useful in the installation

Completed installation

After we've used the nuvoH2O system a couple of months, I'll blog about what I think of it. I'll also show how the canister filter is removed and replaced.

Navien Water Heater Problems

We are having intermittent problems with our tankless water heater. The system is a Navien NR-180A-NG (operates on natural gas). It was installed in December 2010. The system sometimes fails to deliver hot water. Water will flow, but it's cold. This problem only occurs in the winter.

Examination of the control panel indicates the system is in error mode (red light flashing). I didn't note the error code (will do that next time). The system can be restarted by unplugging it and plugging it back in. This morning it took several tries and about 15 minutes to get the system working.

The service tech examined the system and ran some tests, but when he arrived the system was working and he couldn't duplicate the malfunction. He did set an internal recirculation system (we did not get the external recirculation) so the system is supposed to circulate hot water internally from 0600 to 0900 and from 1800 to 2100. This might improve the time it takes to get hot water to various locations in the house, but it's hard to see how it will help the intermittent problem.

One of the theories for why we're having a problem is buildup of condensate in the flue that exhausts hot air from the Navien. The flue piping has a level section that elbows up (see photo) and water could collect here in the winter, since outside air will be cold and make the pipe cold. If enough water is collecting there, it may be blocking exhaust enough so that the system overheats. We'll have to see what the error code tells us next time the system fails.

Vent flue (horizontal) and air intake for tankless water heater.
Flue enters inside wall of garage and goes straight up to roof.
This piping is now contained in a chase.

Update: 3302 W 42nd Pl, June 2012

3302 W 42nd PL, Kennewick, Washington

Locating the Source of the Leak

Double A Plumbing removed drywall to inspect drains and discovered that the source of the leak was a cracked condensate drain pipe. The pipe was apparently cracked when the duct for the room vent was installed, either at the time of installation, or from the pressure that was put on the pipe, which made it vulnerable to cracking during cold, winter temperatures.

Photos below show the drains roughed in vertical, the installation of the vent and duct, the pipe bent to the left beside the duct, and the leak.

Source of Leak in Storage Room

Taking a Closer Look at the Leak

I removed the baseboard and about 3 inches of the drywall. This is what I found.

It is wettest underneath the vent. Insulation is wet there, whereas it is not on either side of the cutout. The photos below show what's behind that vent.

Water Collecting Under Wall Below Navien Tankless Hot Water Heater

We've noticed water collecting under the baseboard below the Navien Hot Water heater. The problem is intermittent; it isn't constant, and it's a small amount of water. We've noticed the water collecting during the day, when water is being used in the house, and when the heating system is more likely to be running. As an example, there was water on the floor along the baseboard yesterday. The water had dried up overnight.

Although the water is below the tankless hot water heater, it isn't coming directly from piping on the hot water heater itself. We've checked the hot and cold water piping, the drain, and cycled the pressure relief valve (in case water is splashing), and found no leaks. The water is definitely collecting inside the wall.

Water is collecting along the baseboard below the Navien
tankless hot water heater. Notice the vent on the wall.
Cold air pours through this vent during the winter.

The water runs all along the baseboard.

Drains (black), main water (blue), and plumbing
for the tankless hot water heater

Drain pipes

Intake and exhaust for tankless hot water heater. Line above
white pipes is HVAC power and condensate drain.

Exhaust goes into garage

and up garage wall

up through roof

Installation of vent ducting.

Installation of Navien tankless hot water heater.

Navien tankless hot water heater as it stands
today. Line above system is condensate drain
from furnace and power to HVAC units outside.

Condensation line exiting storage room to outside under deck.

Condensation line drain by AC unit.

Given the situation, the best guess as to the nature of the problem is condensation forming on the cold water pipe inlet coming to the Navien unit from inside the wall. There's also possibility of condensation forming on the exhaust pipe from the unit.

Pipe insulation can prevent condensation forming, as the surface temperature of the insulation will vary from the surface temperature of the pipe. Condensation will not occur, provided that (a) the insulation surface is above the dew point temperature of the air; and (b) the insulation incorporates some form of water-vapor barrier or retarder that prevents water vapor from passing through the insulation to form on the pipe surface.

Of course, another possibility is a slow leak in one of the water lines. The fact that the problem just showed up in the winter cold weather seems to mitigate against this, but doesn't rule it out.

Warranty Claims

Our agreement with Talon Homes, Inc., calls for us to wait 11 months before pointing out any non-emergency faults in the new home construction that require correction. These some of are the items we included in our email to Talon.

Left garage door guide bracket pulled askew due to the bolts coming loose.

This is caused by nailing together 2x4s instead of using 4x4s (see below)

Framing basement.

Looking down on top of deck pillar, showing it to be unfinished.
This could let moisture penetrate and potentially cause problems.

Footings of deck pillars were not finished.

Glass on door to deck is scratched.

Porch has settled leaving cracks where it abuts to house.

Cracks around front porch.

Weather stripping on front door has gap at bottom letting in draft.

Adding partial strip doesn't work, as it pulls away with opening and closing of door.

Paint on solar tube dome is chipped.

Cracking of window frame in upstairs, hall bathroom.

Crawlspace vents are flimsy plastic. Several have already blown away.

We also had a leak in the downstairs storage room due to poor plumbing workmanship, ridge roof tiles blow off due to improper length of roofing nails, and the door to the master bedroom sticking due to the house settling.

None of these items were addressed by Talon Homes.